Talk:Chara/@comment-4015220-20180519220127/@comment-32182236-20180528120207
"The original plan of absorbing a soul wasn't to break the barrier in the first place though, it was to get past the barrier so they could get the human souls needed to break the barrier. Also why wouldn't they be near as powerful? There's no evidence to suggest they wouldn't, if a monster absorbing a humans soul creates a powerful being then why wouldn't a human absorbing a monster's soul produce the same result? Well Chara's plan was to break the barrier, they didn't exactly need to absorb the souls to break the barrier, they just needed to have them to break the barrier." Allow me to elaborate. At first, the power would be equal. But Chara wanted Asriel to asborb six MORE human SOULs-Thus having the power of seven human SOULs, making him, well, the god of hyperdeath. Asriel can absorb as many human SOULs as he pleases, and continually gain more and more strength. But, if Chara's the vessel.. You're stuck with one human SOUL, and just up to the few boss monsters. (Just realized humans can't absorb any other kind fo monster SOUL, as they just vanish.) That means that you don't even have the power of two humans, and you won't. Ever. Because you can only absorb those weak monster SOULs. Don't you think a megalomaniac would want the more powerful option? Also, what do you mean "have them"? They WOULD have to absorb the SOULs to break the barrier! Unless they plan on entrusting those six humans to help them out after they were just KILLED-Even though Chara hates humanity.. Yeah, that's not going to work.. "No, I meant the reason why they wanted to kill humans in the village specifically was unknown. As in, why they went to their home-village first out of all the places they could have set their plan into motion was unknown." It's the village they knew best, and probably one of the closest to the mountain. If they can navigate it better, they'll do better against those humans during those early days when they're NOT basically a total being of hyperdeath. "That doesn't really debunk my point. If Asriel+Chara had more than enough power to kill every human in their home village, then killing the monsters underground would have been a breeze." Not if Asriel has anything to say about that! "You're missing my point, I said that to prove Chara had no intention of killing monsters with their newly gained power in the first place, which proves Chara was not hell-bent on killing everything." Yeah, they probably weren't AS bad as we see them in-game.. "Okay but there was no reason why they would know it would ruin their plan. At the time they had no idea control was split between them so if they really were a genocidal maniac at the beginning they could have attempted to kill all monsters and then move on." If anything, they would assume Asriel has full control, since, well, it's his body. Why would they think Chara had FULL control? Also, there is evidence that Chara knew about this. "Six, right? We just have to get six.. And we'll do it together, right?" Do it together.. Yeah, Chara knew about this. "I agree with that, so are we in agreement that when Chara first fell and lived with the dreemurrs they were not pure evil but not innocent either and more of a neutral bad person?" Neutral bad? Yeah, that's pretty close. "I'm not sure how to respond to this because in what way do you mean? Because they cared about Asriel's trust or because they needed Asriel's trust to go further with their own ideas?" The latter. "I would agree but remember, Chara had control of the body instantly when they first fused. For all they knew, they were in control of the body since Asriel did not show any signs of having control too until after they reached the village. (I'd say they turn evil in genocide because they are shown by Frisk that they were right, if they try to hold back against the enemy the enemy strikes and kills them. They then see the monsters as enemies because probably because of how they felt betrayed by Asriel. But I do believe Chara turned good at some point in pacifist.)" ...And then turns evil again after a reset even though they can remember True Resets, as evidenced by the Soulless Pacifist Ending? ..Yeah, that's just too fishy. Also, refer above:Chara DID know about split control. "I didn't say they weren't going to break the barrier, I said they were. I was providing evidence as to why Chara was going to break the barrier." Yeah, you were assuming the argument was that they were never going to.. Not my argument. Though, I suppose maybe Halibee's was.. "Remember, Chara had control the whole way to the village, there's no reason why they would have to worry about keeping Asriel on their side if they had no idea Asriel could even take control in the first place." Remember.. Look above. "Also Chara wasn't getting the humans to attack so they could make Asriel willing to attack back. If that were the case Asriel wouldn't have had to hold back Chara's attack, because Chara wouldn't be the one attacking in the first place." Yeah, it was probably so Asriel would be willing to let Chara attack. Which, of course, completely failed. "There would be no reason for Chara to "go all out" because if what you're saying is true Chara would just need to corner Asriel into this scenario so that he would go all out himself." And that cornering is what Chara did when he used their dead body to rally up all the humans in the village. Yet, even then, Asriel still refused. Wow, Asriel. You'd rather die than kill those humans, which, for all you knew, could have saved the monsters.. Hmm.. Let's see.. *an X appears over Asriel..* TRAITOR. "I see your point there, but that still doesn't actually explain where that realization came from. I doubt that after coming back to life they would come to that conclusion on their own that they should kill everyone for power, it seems a lot more likely that Chara would see you killing and then realize killing=gaining power. Unless you're implying they wanted power from the very start of their fall and that's why it came to them so easily, but wanting power isn't what Chara originally wanted. Killing humans because they were a bad person? Yeah. Gaining power for the sake of power? Not really." ..How do we know they DIDN'T want power? This just seems like evidence that they did. Also, it would have been power and eradicating the enemy, so that they may eventually destroy this pointless world, and move onto the next. (If neither humans and monsters are worth existing, then that makes the world itself pointless, seeing how those are the only two races.) "But I guess you could argue that they would want revenge against monsters because of Asriel "betraying them" and that was the reason they went after monsters, if that's what you mean." Yeah, that's about right. It also explains why them killing Flowey was so different than the other ones. (Sans and Asgore) Another possibility is that they started killing everyone because now they know Asriel is useless, and there's no use in keeping his trust.. In which case this would be the real Chara unfolding. "Yeah, then Chara is definitely soulless and being a ghost also makes sense. Asriel and Chara were too completely different people. They handled it differently because Asriel was a nice person in life and Chara wasn't exactly a good person in life." Okay, good-You're NOT like the Chara defenders. "Also I would like to add in that Chara woke up after feeling like Asriel betrayed them AND the first thing they get to see in genocide is you killing monsters for power." The latter should actually convince Chara NOT to do it, because that is a HUMAN, and they HATE humanity! This should just be further proof of how evil humans are. "Keep in mind that they woke up confused, they decided on the "Reincarnation for power" by themself but there's only one thing that could have influenced them to settle on that idea. Unless we're going with the idea that they were always power hungry and genocidal towards monsters in life?" Who says they weren't power-hungry? That probably wasn't their main goal, but getting power from all those humans was a sweet bonus. Why pass that up? Also, as I said, they could have wanted power to destroy everything, because of, well, neither humans and monsters being worthy to exist? (From Chara's perspective.) "...Because at the end of Pacifist Asriel admits that Chara and Frisk are not the same person and can clearly tell the difference between the both of them? Not only that, but Flowey could obviously tell Chara and Frisk were different people from the start, only when he became Asriel did he try to project Chara onto Frisk." .."You're Chara, aren't you?"-Flowey, Genocide Route, Ruins End ...Yeah, how about no. "Which is evidenced by what Flowey says at the beginning of the game, he clearly can tell Frisk is new and takes the opportunity to get Frisks' soul since they don't know a thing." And he didn't even know Chara was alive, period. When he DID find out the difference between Chara and Frisk, he still wouldn't be able to tell who did what. When Chara takes control of Frisk's body, nobody but us (since we ARE Frisk) even knows that it's Chara and not us. "Plus it's obvious he's not talking about a time when they were alive, Chara was never trying to stop the power they had when he took their soul and the ability to control timelines is the only other power he had that can be referenced." I meant the power of reset, just like how Flowey worded it. The poeer to reset is the power they'v been fighting to stop. They were trying to fight the power to reset while they were alive. "Also Flowey didn't mix them up for the entire run, Flowey(Not Asriel) doesn't call Frisk by the name Chara once or even imply that Frisk is Chara once, only when he is Asriel does he try to force Frisk to fit into his image of Chara." Strange.. Why does he suddenly think Frisk is Chara as Asriel, when as Flowey, he can somehow tell the difference? I'd say that as Asriel, that's when he was abke to truly sense Chara (the narrator), and as he couldn't see Chara as separate from Frisk, he deduced it MUST be Frisk. After he found otherwise, he was eventually able to reach the conclusion that Chara was some kind of spirit with Frisk-That happened by the time the speech takes place. Perhaps he heard Chara as the narrator-The narrator CAN be heard, as evidenced by Tsunderplane and Napstablook, and that helped him figure it out. "We both agree that Chara is with Frisk in pacifist though, right? How would Chara hear the speech if they're with Frisk?" How would we hear the speech if they're not with Frisk? Flowey was with Frisk too, you know. "It makes a lot more sense that Chara was stuck in the underground(where Flowey is) while Frisk goes to the surface." Without a barrier, they wouldn't be stuck underground-And Flowey CHOSE to stay underground. Chara still wouldn't like Asriel, even AFTER all of this, because Asriel still took his original stance-NOT killing the humans. They would choose Frisk over Asriel. Plus, they're still bound to Frisk like they were for the entire duration of the game! Why would the barrier breaking change that? (Fun fact, it doesn't-Chara still narrates to you in the Epilouge-There's even new lines, for example, the one about the mouse fibally hacking the safe in Hotland..) "I can agree to Frisk being able to hear or see what Chara see's though, and that Frisk still had the ability to reset or true reset but Chara clearly did help Frisk fight against the reset ability." Evidence? "Quick question, do you believe in the Charrator theory that has a lot of evidence backing it up?(Despite not being confirmed)" Yeah, I believe Charrator:I think I've actually proven it. (click the link for the proof) Even under the strange theory that Frisk is NOT the player, it still holds. (I plan on debunking this strange third entity theory sometime-But for the sake of this proof, I had to take every possibility into account.) "I can see your point on this. I agree now." Good then. "What makes them evil during Pacifist?" If Frisk didn't make them evil on Genocide, then that makes them evil in Pacifist, as they would have been evil no matter what Frisk did. Here's some evidence that they wanted Frisk to kill everything from the very start. (Of their rebirth, that is.) Now, normally, narration says that an apenemy, say, hopped close.. But, the very first time.. It said "Froggit attacks you!" Chara purposefully gave misleading narration, to make Frisk feel threatened, and try to attack. That DOES go away after the first ecounter, though.. Then there's the whole Flowey speech. If Chara wanted to wipe away the happy ending, then they didn't want it. They're evil here. And that's at the very end of Pacifist. "I get your point now on the first part, Chara did not have the ability to reset at that point, Frisk still did. But I don't think we can infer Chara did want a reset, Flowey said they were fighting to stop "that power". He thought Chara had it and went to beg them to not reset(Not because Chara wanted a reset, we don't see a response from Chara so we can't assume what they wanted.) but most likely because he did not trust Chara anymore, he realized that they were fighting against that power but since in life they were extremely manipulating he clearly still views them as being unpredictable. In his mind, while there is a chance they did good they could still just be a manipulative jerk. But in the end Chara gives no response." Alright, let's go through the speech again, while I comment on it. Then, I'll point out the evidence that shows that Chara did indeed likely want to reset. "Well. There is one thing. One last threat. One being with the power to erase EVERYTHING… Everything everyone’s worked so hard for. You know who I’m talking about, don’t you? That’s right. I’m talking about YOU. YOU still have the power to reset everything. Toriel, Sans, Asgore, Alphys, Papyrus, Undyne… If you so choose… Everyone will be ripped from this timeline… …and sent back before all of this ever happened. Nobody will remember anything. You’ll be able to do whatever you want." Yep, Chara's a threat alright. "That power. I know that power. That’s the power you were fighting to stop, wasn’t it? The power that I wanted to use." Alright, actually, yes, it was while Frisk was alive, now that we take this io consideration. Chara wanted to stop it, while Asriel wanted to use it. Chara didn't want ASRIEL to reset, over and over. But.. Why? Could it be because Asriel DIDN'T want to destroy everything? Could it be because Chara wanted to reach the end, and have Frisk use it, so that Asriel may not remember what happened? So that killing everything wouldn't be so suspicious to Flowriel? Also, this very well could have been FRISK fighting to stop it. Because, well, we ARE fighting to stop it, and actions of Frisk are indistinguaihable from actions of Chara. That's kind of why Flowey assumed Chara could perform the True Reset in the first place...? "But now, the idea of resetting everything… I… I don’t think I could do it all again. Not after that. So, please. Just let them go. Let Frisk be happy. Let Frisk live their life." Yeah, this is confirmation this isn't to Frisk. "But. If I can’t change your mind." Change your mind. This implies that by default, Chara wanted to reset. Asriel wanted to CHANGE that, so that Chara doesn't reset. "If you DO end up erasing everything… You have to erase my memories, too. I’m sorry. You’ve probably heard this a hundred times already, haven’t you…?" Flowey assumes Chara HAS already reset, and hundreds of times, even! This is further evidence that resetting was their intention. "Well, that’s all. See you later… Chara." Bye Flowey. So, yeah. It's evident that Chara DID want to reset. They didn't respond with their choice, because they KNOW they're not the one who gets to choose. Frisk gets to choose.